Sorry folks, I’m having concentration problems and can’t put together a decent article to save my life. A friend who wants to remain anonymous asked me to post this.
A new group has started that is trying to get an initiative on the ballot in New York City that would create a real, independent investigation into 9/11. Although the state of New York is not a citizen’s initiative & referendum state like California and 23 other states are, they do have citizens initiative & referendum at the local level in New York City. In order to make it on the ballot, they would have to collect 50,000 valid signatures on a petition from registered voters in New York City. The time frame to do this is 120 days and the latest that the signatures could be turned in is 60 days before the election. In order to ensure that they make it on the ballot they would have to collect extra signatures in order to survive a validity challenge, so they will probably need around 100,000 raw signatures.
I think that this is an excellent idea and I in fact had the same idea myself a few years ago. Just imagine the impact of having a 9/11 Truth ballot initiative on the ballot in New York City. It would be listed in the voter booklets sent out to millions of voters and people would be forced to confront the issue. The media would have a hard time ignoring it. It is obvious that there aren’t enough people in government with the guts to face this issue, so it is up to We The People to push for a real investigation. Even if the initiative fails just going through the process of trying to get it on the ballot is sure to generate publicity and bring more people into the 9/11 Truth Movement.
Right now, the initiative is in the planning stages. They need to find a lawyer or lawyers to consult with to make sure that the initiative is properly worded from a legal standpoint. They need to actually file the initiative with the election office in New York City. They are also going to need to raise money to ensure that they make it on the ballot and to run advertising to increase the chance that the intiaitve passes.
I urge everyone here to visit www.911initiative.org and do whatever you can to help get this project off the ground. There is still time to get this on the ballot for 2007 but if we don’t make it for 2007 we can always go for 2008. I think that it is very important to have this initiative on the ballot by the time of the 2008 Presidential election. Getting this initiative on the ballot could be the big breakthrough that the 9/11 Truth Movement needs.
Less
aynrkey
bostonteapartygoer
Kenn Jacobine
mattdharris
Mike Seebeck
Miche
paulie
Jim Davidson
ponggod
Stuart Richards
Todd Andrew Barnett
I think this’d be a good idea; the 9/11 Commission had woefully huge conflicts of interest. I don’t believe in conspiracy theories but the more we know about this, the better.
…And New York City doesn’t have a conflict of interest? If we’re ever going to figure out what happened, it won’t be through another government investigation, or an “independent” government-hired investigation. It’ll have to be funded privately through donations.
I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either.
The guys who hijacked the planes were all acting independently of each other.
Also, all federal and state conspiracy prosecutions are bogus, the Manhattan Project, MK ULTRA,
Operation Northwoods, The Cuban Project, COINTELPRO, and the Tuskegee Experiments were never kept secret by the government.
The commies really did burn the German parliament.
We won’t even get into the Maine (Spanish-American War), Lusitania, Pearl Harbor (Day of Deceit), Gulf of Tonkin, Kuwaiti babies in incubators, or the Downing Street Memo for that matter.
Just a bunch of nutty conspiracy theories if you ask me
I don’t believe in conspiracy theories either, but I would donate to an independent investigation of 9/11 just to see all the small incompetencies that we’re probably not being told about that made that day much worse.
Has a private investigation ever been allowed in the past? If so, can you tell me about it?
“Nigel Watt Says:
February 25th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
…And New York City doesn’t have a conflict of interest? If we’re ever going to figure out what happened, it won’t be through another government investigation, or an “independent” government-hired investigation. It’ll have to be funded privately through donations.”
The point of bringing the New York City government into it is so that supena powers can be used and so there can be a chance for criminal prosecutions.
There already have been plenty of independent investigations that were private ventures. They are good for educating the public and spreading the message but that’s about it. I’ve been studying 9/11 for years and I believe that the true culprits behind it are factions within our own government. I would like to see the criminals behind 9/11 punished and the only ways to do that would be to do it vigilante style which is clearly not practical, or to go through the government chanels that we have in place.
I think that this is an excellent idea and I hope to see it get off the ground. If this issue were to make it on the ballot people would be forced to confront it. Just going through the process of trying to get it on the ballot would be good because it will help raise awareness about the issue.
There is an existing legal avenue to deal with the 9/11 allegations. It’s called the Grand Jury. Had we gotten a good, unbiased, Grand Jury investigation from the start, we might have gotten impeachment by now, or we might be fighting in Israel rather than Iraq, or there might be public outcry against the banking/investment cartel. Or all of the above. Who knows? It depends what the truth actually is.
I suppose this bill is a good start, but if we don’t revitalize our justice system, and do it soon, we will all be screwed. Independent Grand Juries are important, and something like JAIL for Judges would be helpful as well.
There was a systematic non-governmental investigation into the engineering aspects of the World Trade Towers collapses. The engineering issues are well-understood. The planes flew into the building. The buildings collapsed, fortunately not instantaneously or even more people would have died.
This study is now being promptly followed by the heavily funded nongovernmental investigation:
We are in America. Everyone even vaguely involved in the event is now suing everyone else, to establish who pays damages for what. There are enormous numbers of experts, attorneys, plaintiffs, estate attorneys,… all looking for some avenue to show that their clients were not at fault. The amounts involved are in the 10 or 11 digit range. No conspiracy has a chance of evading detection.
“George Phillies Says:
February 26th, 2007 at 9:46 am
There was a systematic non-governmental investigation into the engineering aspects of the World Trade Towers collapses. The engineering issues are well-understood. The planes flew into the building. The buildings collapsed, fortunately not instantaneously or even more people would have died.”
Then explain to us how WTC Building 7 collapsed. WTC 7 was a 47 story steel framed office building that was on the other side of the complex from the Twin Towers and it was NOT HIT BY AN AIRPLANE but yet it mysteriously collapsed several hours later.
Here is video from the collapse of WTC 7.
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
Physics Professor Steven Jones says WTC brought down by controlled demolition
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=529253447051382848&q=steven+jones&hl=en
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely Collapse? By Steven Jones
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:hpnkV701n_UJ:www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf+steven+jones+paper&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
Duth Demolitions Expert Danny Jowenko Says that WTC Could Not Have Collapsed From Fire
http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=Jowenko&refpage=issues
The two links that I just posted above are two experts who say that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition. Perhaps we could set up a debate between George Phillies and Steven Jones, a “duel” between two physics professors.
Larry Silverstein admitts to “pulling” WTC Building 7
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7750532340306101329&q=larry+silverstein&hl=en
What exactly was WTC lease holder talking about when he said that they “pulled” WTC Building 7? Hint: “pulling” a building is industry talk for a controlled demolition.
“This study is now being promptly followed by the heavily funded nongovernmental investigation:
We are in America. Everyone even vaguely involved in the event is now suing everyone else, to establish who pays damages for what. There are enormous numbers of experts, attorneys, plaintiffs, estate attorneys,… all looking for some avenue to show that their clients were not at fault. The amounts involved are in the 10 or 11 digit range. No conspiracy has a chance of evading detection.”
9/11 being an inside job has not evaded detection. There are many people who have investigated 9/11 and all of the evidence points to it having been an inside job.
Governments have a history of lying and engaging in conspiracies. Evidence surfaced after WW II that the FDR administration baited the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor and knew that the attack was going to happen and actually allowed it to happen because they wanted to draw America into the war. The Gulf Of Tonkin incident which lead to the escalation of US involvement in Vietnam turned out to be a lie. It came out that Lyndon Johnson conspirared with the Israeli military to sink the USS Liberty with the intent of drawing America into war in the Middle East. Look at the Watergate scandal. Look at Iran-Contra. George HW Bush told blatant lies to get America into the first Gulf War. The government clearly overstepped its boundries in regaurds to Ruby Ridge and Waco and then told a bunch of lies to cover it up. It is not clearly apparent that George W. Bush told a bunch of lies to get us into another war in the Persian Gulf (just like his father did). Governments lie and engage in conspiracies on a regular basis.
Here’s the thing about Building 7: if the goal was to get people to freak out, destroying it was completely pointless. The Twin Towers had already fallen.
Q; Why do governments engage in conspiracies that leave people dead?
A: Because they can afford it. Drastic budget cuts might have prevented 9/11 and certainly would have prevented waco.
The collapse of the other buildings is entirely well understood. There are serious engineering reports by a set of first-rate Fire and Structural engineers on this. Some of the building segments had large pieces of skyscraper fall on them from great height. Others were attached to the same underground structure, which was wrecked when two complete skyscrapers fell on it from an extremely great height.
There are no mysteries here, and two airplanes, large amounts of kerosene, and huge amounts of ignited particle board, plus the laws of mechanics, explain everything fairly clearly.
“George Phillies Says:
February 26th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
The collapse of the other buildings is entirely well understood. There are serious engineering reports by a set of first-rate Fire and Structural engineers on this. Some of the building segments had large pieces of skyscraper fall on them from great height. Others were attached to the same underground structure, which was wrecked when two complete skyscrapers fell on it from an extremely great height.”
Tell us about the airplane that hit World Trade Center Building 7. You must have seen an airplane that nobody else saw. So you expect us to believe that fire jumped across the WTC complex from the Twin Towers and caused WTC 7 – a 47 story office building – to collapse? If this is true, why didn’t the buildings that were right next to the Twin Towers collapse?
“There are no mysteries here, and two airplanes, large amounts of kerosene, and huge amounts of ignited particle board, plus the laws of mechanics, explain everything fairly clearly.”
Most of the fuel burned up on impact. The WTC Twin Towers were designed to take hits from large commercial airliners.
Here’s more…
“Kerosene Melts Steel?
By 911wasInsideJob
The official explanation for the collapse of the WTC towers relies on the idea that the steel was melted, or at least significantly weakened, by the temperatures produced by the jet fuel fires in the buildings. Ignore the fact that most of the jet fuel was burned in the first few seconds after impact in the observed fireballs. Ignore that the temperature of burning jet fuel (kerosene) is about a thousand degrees below the melting point of steel. Ignore the observation that the fires were producing rich black smoke, indicative of fuel-rich, oxygen starved, cool burning flames. Ignore that the fires burned for only 56 min, and 1:23 minutes in WTC2 and WTC1 respectively, while the steel was certified to withstand 2000 degree fires for 6 hours. Ignore the fact that UL fire tested samples of the WTC steel after the fact and could not get them to fail. How can we explain the presence of molten pools, and dripping streams, of molten metal in the sub-basements of the towers and building 7 up to 5 weeks after 9/11? Kerosene and burning furniture cannot melt steel, period; but thermite (an incendiary explosive used to cut steel) does produce molten iron as a byproduct. And residues of thermite were found in samples of the previously molten metal analyzed by Prof. Steven E Jones et. al. (www.st911.org)”
Would you be willing to participate in a public debate on this issue? We could contact physics professor Steven Jones and try to arrange a public debate.
Andy,
It’s good to see you posting over here!
“TitaniumGirl Says:
February 26th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Andy,
It’s good to see you posting over here!”
Thanks.
Regarding conspiracy theories, I like Butler Shaffer’s remark: “I’m not interested in conspiracy theories. I’m interested in the facts of conspiracies.”
“The official explanation for the collapse of the WTC towers relies on the idea that the steel was melted, or at least significantly weakened, by the temperatures produced by the jet fuel fires in the buildings.”
No, it doesn’t, and I regularly lunch with one of the senior engineers who studied the collapse. This is Professor Jonathan Barnett, WPI Center for FireSafety Science/Fire Protection Engineering Program.
I urge people who are actually interested to read the actual reports. Look for discussions of the sprinkler system, the water reserve, and the consequences of igniting what was in the office (which was the killer).
The burning kerosene was handled by the water reserve above the fire.
“No, it doesn’t, and I regularly lunch with one of the senior engineers who studied the collapse. This is Professor Jonathan Barnett, WPI Center for FireSafety Science/Fire Protection Engineering Program.”
Why not participate in a public debate on the matter? Surely if you are so confident in your position you and whoever you want on your side would be willing to engage in a public debate? I will contact Scholars For 9/11 Truth and see if we can get a debate going. Are you up for it?
“I urge people who are actually interested to read the actual reports. Look for discussions of the sprinkler system, the water reserve, and the consequences of igniting what was in the office (which was the killer).
The burning kerosene was handled by the water reserve above the fire.”
Why don’t you explain to us how WTC Building 7 collapsed? WTC 7 was not hit by an airplane and was on the opposite side of the complex.
Here is video footage of the collapse of WTC 7.
http://www.wtc7.net/videos.html
Now you can’t claim that you haven’t seen it.
So I suppose that you expect us to believe that fire jumped across the complex and caused a 47 story steel structure office building to fall into its own footprints.
Physics Professor Steven Jones on Thermite at the WTC
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4884818450327382904
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
Physics 9/11
http://www.physics911.net/
Wow, good to see a little dialogue on these issues, even if some of us need to study up on the basic properties of natural law. You know, like physics. It’s much easier to attack WTC7, as it was not hit by a plane, and didn’t suffer significant structural damage from the debris hit it took. I choose to take issue on the main two buildings. I would urge Mr. Phillies to pass these questions and thoughts to his expert friend. I would love to hear the answers and rebuttal.
1. The jet fuel explosions, generating the maximum heat for this event, approx. 1800-2300 degrees, was not nearly enough to melt the steel. They lasted mere seconds. This could not have significantly weakened the nearest columns, and there were 42 huge ones. You’ll find the specs in the links above. Try Dr. Jones’ “How Indeed…”. How then could it have weakened the lower floors?
2.Even if it had been hot enough and burned at these temperatures long enough, it would not have had the time to transfer much of that heat very far down these massive columns. How could it possibly have weakened them to the degree that they would shatter like glass into neat little lengths which fell at free-fall speed.
3. What happened to the concrete between the floors? That was the majority of the dust cloud you saw, as the buildings fell. Did the weight of the upper floors pulverize it into fine dust and blow it out of the sides of the building, along with huge chunks of the columns? I believe this to be impossble.
4. Why was NIST unable to recreate a working model? Please have your friend attempt it on any scale. The impossibility will astound you and apparently him. One NIST engineer is said to have called the attempt,”a half-baked farce”. Natural law agrees with him.
5. If it were a ‘pancake’ collapse, caused by weakened columns, where were the stacked floors? Where were the crushed bodies and machines?
How were they all blown to tiny bits, prompting one responder to say that the largest piece of anything he found was half a telephone keypad?
Your reference to what was “in the office” being “the killer” is weaker than O.J.’s plan to catch his. Unless they had nitro in every water cooler, and thermate in every desk and file drawer, the contents of the offices had little or no effect on the structural integrity of these buildings. The fires had cooled to the point of emitting black smoke, (no oxygen, you know), well before the collapses. This smacks of temperatures that don’t even strike fear into an “Old Smokey” bbq pit’s heart.
6. And last, but hardly least: Why do all the recordings of the first responders have them talking about multiple, timed explosions, going down & around the buildings? Why does William Rodriguez, the civilian hero of the day, for getting the firemen up and hundreds of people out, speak of a massive explosion in the sub-basement, just “before” the jet hit the building?
The official government story about 9/11 is a ridiculous conspiracy theory and expecting anyone to believe it is degrading. The conpiracy FACTS all point back to it being an inside job.
THE SMOKING GUN WTC7, BBC JUMPS THE GUN
http://rattube.com/blog1/2007/02/26/the-smoking-gun-wtc7-bbc-jumps-the-gun/
BBC World Trade Center 7 Timestamp Confirms BBC Reported Collapse 26 Minutes in Advance
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/bbc_wtc_7_timestamp_confirms_bbc_reported_collapse_26_min_advance.htm
Bombshell: 9/11 Coverup Unraveling
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/bbc_wtc_7_911_coverup_unraveling.htm
Why No One Could Have Predicted the Collapse of WTC 7
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc_7_why_no_one_could_have_predicted_collapse.htm